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  1. What I enjoy about metal's use of gimmicks is that it removes the image of the person from the mind during the performance (not necessarily in all cases). Pop and other genres focus on treating the performer as an idol to be worshiped in a sense, where metal tends to focus on bringing the audience into the myth created by the bands music, and the performers become characters in this world (black metal and some of the more elaborate power metal and folk metal bands really come to mind for this).

  2. Don't know why some people get so pissed off at artists having an image. It's art!! I'd much rather get into an artist that has taken the time to forge a full creative persona than a group of people wearing the same old boring jeans and t-shirt. Seriously, artists have been creating semi-fictional to fictional personas for centuries

  3. i think on top of gimmicks, a big part of poppy and babymetal’s popularity is that they’re blurring genre lines in ways that a lot of metal bands aren’t. they’re incorporating different sounds, but maybe more importantly they’re incorporating a sense of fun and (decidedly feminine) playfulness that doesn’t really exist in metal outside of them. and this is new and exciting but the timing is also perfect; lots of pop fans who maybe wouldn’t have seen the appeal of a bunch of dudes in a room taking themselves way too seriously but are becoming more open to aggressive music through pop trends, and metal fans who i think are more than ever open to unironically enjoying “left-field” genres like pop and hip hop

  4. Excuse me sir, Babymetal has improved so many years. Youths love the creativity of their music and you are saying that it is not great; then get more research again. Possibly, Babymetal has the tendency to surpass Kpop. Babymetal has won server all awards and have more money than Poppy does.

  5. Maybe you should watch other song other than Gimme chocolate and karate before trying to make an argument about BABYMETAL.

    atleast hear one of their album (full), since THEIR SONG ARE SO DIFFERENT from each other you can't judge it by a couple song

  6. What about Lady Gaga? Sure, some metalhead might talk trash on Lady Gaga, and usually get berated by every other metalhead around. It's really weird.
    It's gotta be the meat dress

  7. Also, why are you saying BABYMETAL are lip sync? Because you watch Gimme chocolate mv?

    You're smart enough to know that it's a love performance OVERLAY with an album audio right? No? Then you should go to their concert to relize how stupid wring you are 🙂

  8. Tbh there are tons of "non-gimicky" metal bands too which are really popular, like most death metal (melodeath included), thrash and stoner/sludge bands. But in a way having a presence like Cannibal Corpse is a gimmick too. The biggest band of the genre with just band shirts and jeans is not what most artists of other genres would do 😀

    I disagree with some thoughts on Babymetal part though, they're definitely singing live and have gained a lot of following outside rock and metal fans. They already have become a bit of a gateway drug for some. Not my taste, but still. Obviously they won't make a local mainstream radio, but they've already outdone themselves.

  9. Hey Finn, thanks for the vid! Gonna check Poppy's album, I only knew her older stuff. Do you have any cool suggestions for fringy crazy poppy electronic stuff? If you don't know them, check Tami T and the and the last albums of The Knife and Fever Ray. Next stop: your podcast 🙂

  10. Metal has always been all about image just as much as any other genre, it's just that metal is the worst of them all when it comes to pretentious tossers who just want to shit on anything that's successful. Go all the way back to the start – Black Sabbath became successful when they stopped being Earth, changed up their sound and started to incorporate an image.

  11. Not a fan of Babymetal. The music is good, but the vocals just sound like an anime intro (or outro). I just don’t find the language cohesive with the sound.. too many vowel sounds. I’m liking what Poppy is doing currently and am looking forward to see what she does with it. Rammstein and Lindemann both have had albums drop in the past 12 months. Grimes doesn’t stick to genres, but she has a couple of decent rock bangers.
    ETA: I see you agree with the anime comment at 10:50 lol

  12. With a darker image being popular recently (ashnikko, billy Eilish) I think maybe poppy might do some good. Didn’t like her music too much tho, didn’t do it for me.

  13. Ever considered its not metalheads clicking these bands? They get popular because the non metal listeners get word of the "gimmick", and listen to the bands purely as a pisstake, then use them as examples of why metal isn't a real genre and say shit like "oh you listen to that screaming shit with satan and masks"….. Fucking cuntsssssss

    Also, the labels are signing this shit and pushing it more than their real metal bands. It's fucking gross.

  14. Id rather listen Babymetal not because of the music but because they sound fun and energetic, the type of music that can appeal to nonmetal people.

    Compared to Poppy that tries hard with her music so much that I lost interest to listen to her more. And probably her parents paid everything so she can be unique and weird.

    Remember Lady Gaga gaining recognition with her weird style until she got popular and became mediocre? Yea….

  15. I’m a metal fan. I totally agree with you. I think we in the metal community need to be more self-aware about things like this.

  16. tricot > Band-Maid > Baby Metal

    Personally, I prefer substance over style. Give me excellent musicians barefoot in sweat pants that I can rock out to over over-produced cash grabs any day. I love metal but sometimes Baby Metal makes me cringe.

  17. I think Babymetal is better than Finn says. I'm not saying that it's not gimmicky, but the music definitely has punch and substance to it. About a third of their songs have really good guitar solos. Plus, despite the fact that most of their songs have a "simple" setup, they have a real energy behind them, coupled with riffs that can definitely get a crowd going.

    I don't know. I feel like his "meh" outlook on Babymetal kind of tarnished his view on them as a whole. I mean, to each their own, he's not required to like them, but I feel like his assessment of Babymetal is a bit too dismissive.

  18. Personally I'm very picky when it comes to metal. It's not my first genre of choice to listen to. I usually listen to Punk or Ska. But Babymetal and Ladybaby get regular plays from me. I think the appeal to me is that the vocals are of good quality and the songs are catchy but with that energy that isn't present in say modern pop songs that have good vocals but bad pacing.

  19. never liked baby metal … never wanted to listen to poppys stuff but the snippets in the video kinda made me curious hmmmm .

    edit : listened to the whole "i dissagree" album and yeah you CAN write metal in a major scale/mode … but is it heavy ? maybe … is it brutal ? … maybe … is it original ? definetly yes … do i like it ? i dissagree

  20. i pretty much agree on everything said in the video, except for one thing: i've seen babymetal live and they are definately not lyp-syncing live! at least when i've seen them last week, 100% sure of that

  21. Maybe metal needs gimmicks because screaming and breakdowns all start to sound the same after a while and fans are desensitized to anything that isn't super shocking or weird

  22. Yo this video just opened my third eye for metal. I’ve been a metal/ rock fan since young but I never see or even realize this point so hard, thanks man seriously

  23. I love metal of all forms, with a preference towards black metal, and I agree with everything you just said. As with any subculture there are pretentious people trying to uphold some kind if idea of elitism and superiority within the genre, but when all is said and done you can't deny that it is the costume of Papa Emeritus that made you fall in love with Ghost.

  24. You should rate BABYMETAL after watching a live show
    Bring Me the Horizon has taken on the opening act of BABYMETAL
    So will Bring Me the Horizon take on the HOPPY's Opening Act?

    I am waiting for the video to correct that framework lol

  25. It reveals that metal fans can like whatever they like just like punk fans can apparently like marketing 😂 . Shut up Nerd

  26. Great video and a lot of great observations. I have a couple of questions:
    Of all the people who fill the crowds for live shows by baby metal or poppy, how many of them actually listened to metal before these acts? As in, are they actual metal fans or fans of just these particular metal bands? I can only hope that these acts become “gateway bands.”

    Secondly, if a young or beginning musician sees this video or gets this notion that gimmicks seem to be more important than musicianship, will it deter them from continuing to pursue starting a band and writing music etc?

    Keep up the great content!

  27. I would say a lot of self proclaimed "real Metal fans" try to convince people that BabyMetal and Poppy are terrible. Also, I would say Steel Panther would fall into the category of a joke band. Other than that, is I do agree. In the idea that a lot of Rock and Metal fans are quite hypocritical in saying that they want this DIY idea, while sucking up gimmicks in various forms. This is is coming from a Metal fan.

  28. Ugh, just garbage. I don't know a single 'metalhead' that listens to any of this. Although I have met quite a few 12yo boys and girls that think it's cool.

  29. I mean, my theory on this is that Deftones, especially Chino Moreno, loves expanding his horizons when it comes to genre crossings which is why Poppy is on the bill. So, if you love Deftones, there's a good chance you have a fluent favor of other genres as well which is why Poppy fits so perfectly. They're as well bringing EVERYONE together with Gojira on the bill, too. Everyone's getting punched in the face with something different. Good tactic on Deftones part. As for the Kawaii metal group BABYMETAL, I feel a good portion of their fans are possibly anime fans. I dabble in it myself, which is why it would correlate with metalheads in such a profound way. It just makes sense. Fuck. There's probably a bunch of undercover metal FURRIES running around in there somewhere(XD). You'll just never know. The traditional metalhead will say fuck all this. Obviously. Then there are…The Others. They'll look like your traditional metalhead…but they're not. lol. Other people will make it more obvious and apparent that they're NOT your traditional metalhead. It eventually just seeps its way into the metal community one way or another.

  30. Behemoth wont flop without their flashy outfits, they dont wear them live and they never used to be a gimmicky band when they started. Punks just one big gimmick though, gotta fuck that system yo.

  31. Mumble rap is now what heavy metal was in the 90’s.

    I would say go to hardcore but it’s more about image and politics more than anything these days, the scene thinks for you.

    Just type in a country with your preferred genre of heavy music and see what you get it’s great I suggest spitn nailz from Australia really intense!

  32. I love baby metal…think about it… Hello… #Babymetal!!!!… But if someone actually listens to the music and instruments and structure of the songs… They're totally in a different class than alot of Post Malone, rap studio jelly roll, rap bs out now… Js. #justmyopinion #whatdoiknow

  33. For me (I love the core genres) it's about the connection between the performers and the audience. I love the gimmicks in slipknot, behemoth and all… but baby metal is just pushing it to a weird place. nothing beats an honest performance from some regular dudes who just love making heavy music, I know there are people who like the same type of show as me.

  34. I've seen Babymetal live. I've heard Sumetal's vocals recorded in comparison, and I've heard the off-notes when she sings a set live. Backing vocals are likely a backing track, but Su does not lip-sync.

  35. Wow this sounds like a POPPY Marketing LMAO!
    "lip-sync" : You have to buy a headphone or something LOL That's absolutely not.
    "they seem to be driven much more by marketing blah blah" : Nope, fans found Babymetal's talents on YouTube or festivals, Even now they almost don't appear TV shows. those songs was initially for recital in academy.

  36. 好き嫌いは理解できるが公でBMを非難するのは、一度ライブに行ってからにして欲しいでね。

  37. I can't speak to Babymetal, but I think Poppy also has some great crossover appeal. Those extra 30k listeners probably aren't metal fans. Her album is obviously metal forward, but she has really nice, sweet vocals that are honestly way nicer to listen to than most metal vocalists. I have zero interest listening to, say, Marilyn Manson and only occasional interest listening to Rammstein who are both obvious influences on "I Disagree" and both have a lot of gimmick to their images. But I can totally listen to the Poppy album and enjoy it more long term.

  38. I think the other alt genre that's comparable to metal in its use of gimmicks is goth/darkwave, especially the more glam Batcave stuff like Alien Sex Fiend

  39. You might want to check the Visual Kei movement of the Jrock side. some bands are heavy. You might want to check this out – the Gazette- filth in the beauty.

  40. I dont know if i would care for, say…Napalm Death, if they were gimmicky. As an old Punker, i have always noticed that popular Metal tends toward the gimmicks.

  41. SU-METAL is really singing at their live on the stage, you better check their live show, before saying she was doing lip singing on stage… And they are Live Band. Their Live is 100 times better than their CDs. And their KAMIBAND (back band) is one of the highest technical band existing currently as almost impossible to cover what they do on the stage. (They are actually top class teachers of "Music Institute" and friends.)

  42. While they are typically mostly Hard Rock but a lot of their songs do flirt on the edge of Metal, Band-Maid is truly a real 5 member all female Japanese rock band that have serious talent and not just a singing and dancing number with a band tucked behind them like Babymetal. Do Band-Maid have a gimmick, sure they're all in maid outfits, but the entire band is filled with talent. Do a you tube search on Band-Maid Live performances.

  43. As a little sidenote, Baby Metal's origin is of the Idol movement in Japan, wich has some interessing Alternative Idol bands to offer.
    Like Guso Drop/Burst Girl, Broken by the scream, Candye Syrup, Hikari Shiina or Not Secured, Loose Ends.
    Not for everyones ears, but worth noteing where Baby Metal comes from and what other stuff is there.

  44. I don’t think it’s fair to say BabyMetal’s success comes from their image, it’s the music being such poppy idol vocals alongside metal that’s the draw. I mean what actually drew me in was Megitsune because of its use of traditional Japanese music but made into metal. They’re a genuine breath of fresh air in metal. I feel like Poppy is absolutely an attempt to cash in on what BabyMetal have already been doing for years, especially since it was such a drastic change for her to do that from what she was before that.

  45. Metal is about image……while also having real musicians with good music. Even the metal bands that don't use corpse paint and costumes, have an image they need to maintain. Also, Mudvayne did just that. They dropped the face paint simply because too many fans made their music simply about that. You can do that with almost all "shock rock" bands and they would still bang hard even without the "gimmick".

  46. I don´t like Poppy, but I do enjoy Babymetal. However, I think the reason they are really popular is that they're fun. And for a long time in metal fun hasn't been relevant. There is this obsesion with being extremely technical and hard to listen.

  47. Thought you actually would of listened to a baby metal album or 2 before doing this video. The music falls under exceptional. The last 2 albums HAVE been written by the band. They absolutely do not lip-sync live and have won awards for best live show. They do songs from many many metal sub-genre’s, in fact karate is pretty much the only nu-metal sounding track.Pretty embarrassing video from a usually solid commentator.

  48. Every big band has some gimmicks. Even if it just that guitar brand that music nerds like me like that they are representing etc.

  49. Not my gimmicks. I prefer anger driven metal with a message. I don't care for cutesy shit, brainless lyrics, hair, sex, or basic bitch shit. A good portion of the dudes and some chicks I know are just wanting to see Baby Metal nude, because "yellow fever" or some shit. Poppy is an outlier because she actually has a message built into her gimmick. She's attacking all of the shallow superficial shit in a more disturbing way than most metal. That whole android a.i. shtick was brilliant and unsettling as a motherfucker. I bet most people had an issue confronting their own "NPCness" when they watched a Poppy vid. I judge any artist by a simple metric, if I can listen to their message on a daily basis. The looks are only there for a visual emphisation.

    A quick cross sample of my metal collection- Static- X, Slipknot, Mudvayne, Fear Factory, In This Moment, Otep, Sevendust, Falling In Reverse, Lamb of God, FFDP, BLS, Pantera just to name a few. Poppy is growing on me… slowly.

  50. I agree with you in pretty much everything except dethklok, they are exceptional in their music and wouldn’t need to rely on their gimmick so much, although I agree they would lose popularity

  51. I think there are little mass appeal metal bands currently, this is why gimmicks take the top spot. And concept/image is important for metal since Rob Halford went on stage with a leather biker image in the 70's. If you disagree with that, google "Manowar"

  52. I really don't think Babymetal and Poppy are at all connected. Babymetal is doing their own thing and even if you discredit it I think everyone can appreciate it even if its not their thing. Poppy is persona for an artist. She is not a Metal artist but a visual and audio artist making metal music currently. Babymetal or other jrock bands might have gimmicks like visual kei but they are rock artists at the end of the day. If you listen to Poppy's songs instead of watching a music video you are probably missing out on a lot of what she has to offer. I am not a fan of her because she is the definition of a plant and just want to listen to music without the drama. I hope she is good and that her former partner/manager didn't abuse her and shit like that but they seemed fucked up and I'm not about that.

  53. i saw Poppy two weeks ago..AMAZING show. im a 51 yo who grew up loving metal and then getting into minor threat, circle jerks and the like. then grunge happened…seen em all…i was quite surprised how cool the Poppy show was. i love her album and her early music too. bite your teeth and fill the crown are excellent tracks.

  54. poppy to me just comes off as "trying way too hard to be edgy". it's like your parents hating your music for years then randomly seeing you and wearing shirts of bands you like saying "hey, i'm cool right?".

  55. I think you're missing the fact that a large chunk of the younger generation is obsessed with anything Japanese. Not saying it's a bad thing, just an observation.

  56. What about bands like Animals as Leaders of Polyphia? No vocals or gimmicks to hide behind, just the music and emotional response. It’s bands like these that have been coming up in the ranks that have interested me. Metal is blending and taking on new forms.

  57. Personally, I think it's fantastic that Poppy, Babymetal, Ghost, etc. are introducing metal to demographics that normally would shun it (and, in my opinion at least, are all putting out excellent material that open-minded metal fans can enjoy just as much as curious pop fans).
    I'd also add Jinjer to this list, to a lesser extent. I don't consider them a gimmick band, but their skyrocket in popularity can absolutely be traced back to the surprise of hearing Pisces for the first time, and the pacing of that song seems intentionally set up to elicit that reaction. It makes me think about what role reaction channels on Youtube are playing in shaping popular music these days. Like, nothing against Jinjer, I'm a huge fan and think they're massively talented, but I really think their success and recognition is largely attributed to those channels.

  58. Any thing from Japan gets a pass from metal heads cuz its scrambles their brains so hard all that is left to do is smile.

  59. But what makes you think the majority of BabyMetal listeners come from the metal fanbase?
    My impression is that it's the other way around – BabyMetal and the like is the 'heavy outlet' for people who don't usually listen to much metal (let alone extreme metal). That's why they have so many more Spotify listens etc.

  60. Is that who is going on tour with deftones and gojira? Mehhhh
    Poppy ripped so much of her image from Mars Argo, I think they finally settled but yeah.. not a fan of poppy at all. Mars Argo is the original Poppy.

  61. First babymetal album is okay. I like some songs, not really like the rest. But the second album is excellent! Su is hell of a singer

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