‘Respect is a two-way thing’ | Modern Masculinity
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‘Respect is a two-way thing’ | Modern Masculinity

November 30, 2019

I’m trying to think
where would you see someone like you and
someone like Pat together? A retirement centre. [laughing] What would you be doing
at a retirement centre? – Giving him his pills. – To shut me up. – OK, you let me know
when you’re ready, Alex. – Ready, oh we’ve got music on. – I’m on my way to Brighton
to meet up with this group of men who work with an organisation called
Band of Brothers. They have these groups who
work with men coming out of prison and who are in vulnerable
situations. And they do these weekends away,
where they have this rite of passage to being a man. [cheering and applause] I’m really interested in the work
that a Band of Brothers does because they have this generational
aspect to it where they have older mentors who have been
through similar positions to the younger men
that they work with and I just want to know more
about that relationship, the dynamics between the older men
and the younger men and basically what it is
that they get from being in this group all together. – Have I got to behave? – If that had been a
prerequisite we wouldn’t have fucking invited you. [laughter] – Well that’s really
lovely isn’t it? – Before I started ABoB,
I thought it was going to be another counselling sort of thing,
another therapy group that wasn’t going to work,
that I just go to just to see how it goes. The best thing to date
is the fact that I don’t get told what to do. They’ve never once told me
this is how you’ve got to do it, this is what you’ve got to do,
this is how this works, this is how this works. – When I was younger
I tried the counselling thing but then they sit in that
chair and they go, ‘Oh yeah, this is how
you’re supposed to live your life.’ You’ll sit there and tell me
your shit and the shit that’s actually happened to you, and then I’ll
sit there and go, hang on, he’s willing
to open up to me, so I’m going to be willing
to open up to you, instead of this dude just sitting
there with his legs crossed just looking down on me because
apparently, you’re better than me. The sheer vulnerability.
When you see someone else’s vulnerability or another man’s vulnerability, there’s a sense of, ‘I can
really trust that man’. That’s what I feel. – I’ve been in and out
of prison since I was 14. I’ve got 70 police convictions
and it was only since coming out of prison the last time,
that was three years ago, I found Band of Brothers. I’m not there yet, but I’m
slowly getting myself more in my body. I think that’s the key
to all of this, is feeling everything that’s
going on inside instead of trying to
run away from it. Like anxiety, anger, fear, sadness,
it’s getting me a long way. I think that’s kind of
where us men go wrong is, we’re trying to run away
from our shit that’s inside. There are men and young
men in this circle who’ve been in the care system, who’ve been to prison,
who perhaps have experienced things in their
childhoods that nobody, nobody should ever
experience. But Band of Brothers
is about us as a community of older men reaching out a
hand to those young men and saying ‘we’re here
for you’. – So while I would have
really liked to go on one of these rites of passage weekends
that a Band of Brothers does, they don’t let women
go on them and they don’t really like filming
to happen there understandably because it’s quite an intimate
thing, which they do there. So after speaking to the guys
at this group which they set up, I wanted to speak to a few
of them by themselves. I wanted to speak to Pat
because he just seemed absolutely lovely and I
wanted to speak to Ben because while he didn’t speak
a lot in the group that I was at, what he did say kind of
sparked my interest a bit and made me wonder
what his experience was and what his thoughts were
behind a Band of Brothers and masculinity generally. Is that genuinely the toilet? – Yeah, it’s a hole with
sawdust in it. – That you helped make that? – Yeah.
– Nice work. A lot of the people
that seemed to have been through a Band
of Brothers have gone through
systems like care or prison or they’ve gone through
mental health services. And these are all really official
professional things that they’ve gone
through where you sit opposite somebody
whose job it is. Is the solution always more
provisions and the government doing more stuff or are there
other ways that you can, within a community,
provide networks and support and stuff like that?
– Yeah. – I’ve done everything else. All the psychotherapies
and everything else, where I’ve just been
pushed into it. If you’re pushed into something
you just don’t want to do it. You don’t want to
take part, you don’t give 100%. – Communities need to be
enabled to help themselves. You know, people are very
isolated now, aren’t they? A lot of the problems along
mental health is isolation. It is helpful to have that
professional kind of input, but I think we’re volunteers
and we’re a community so we share a lot of stuff,
not because we’re being paid for it, because we want to do it,
because we all believe that a social change
needs to happen. – When I first went to
Band of Brothers, I wasn’t used to seeing
geezers crying or getting emotional over stuff. So it was a big old
change for me. – But did that then let you
feel like you could show emotion? – I’ve always been really
bad with showing emotion or talking about gear. It’s just I can’t, I don’t want
to express it to other people. You know, I don’t want
to show weakness. – I mean, there’s that idea
that people always say guys find it harder to talk about
their feelings than women. Do you think that’s true? – There’s a lot of the old
kind of Victorian stiff upper lip thing, especially in British societies
where you don’t show those things. It’s like putting on armour,
putting on camouflage. In a Band of Brothers, that is,
if someone shows a vulnerability you actually think I can trust that guy because he’s being honest. – What do you think are the
issues that quite a few men are dealing with that, I guess,
we’re not really talking about? – It’s talking alone.
It’s who do you talk to? Everything stays here
and you’re just emotionally disconnected from everybody. Other than Band of Brothers,
I’ve got nobody to talk to and it has been built up for …
which is why it’s caused me a lot of problems. – It’s interesting when I
talk to you because it’s like, you definitely, you have so many
interesting things to say, but I still feel, even when I
chat to you, there is a little bit of
holding some stuff back. – That’s because one of
the things that Band of Brothers tell us is like, it’s your story,
it’s not everybody else’s story so if you’re gonna give it
to anybody else, then let it be about you
and I’m trying to explain. There’s a lot of things in
there that’s just linked to others. – OK. I’m interested in that
relationship between the older generation and
the younger generation and kind of, what you see
being your role in that? What you get out of it. – I think it’s really important
that communities are cross-generational. I think when you start
segregating, an awful lot is lost. That energy, I think that’s what,
you know, our energy, at my age, my energy starts to dip. When these guys come in, it’s
like anything’s possible energy. – What about you? How do you see Pat
as a person in your life? – There’s a lot of things that
I like that he likes, like the bushcraft
and just being outdoors; very laid back and really
easy to connect with. – Probably both coming from
working-class backgrounds as well. – Yeah. It’s a real struggle
to bond with privileged … not privileged as such,
the ones that act more privileged. It’s a lot less down to earth.
– That makes so much sense. – A lot of say working-class lads,
they would have gone into trades and apprenticeships, which
isn’t happening so much any more. I think there’s a lot of emphasis
on schools and academic achievement and the actual practical
skills are being lost. – There is people that just
aren’t made for office jobs, they need to be more
hands-on. – There’s nothing wrong
with that. – Did you have, I guess,
role models, or a strong relationship with your dad or uncles
or other people growing up? – No, not at all, really.
I just grew up on my own, in a way. Through the care system,
didn’t care about old people. They say respect your elders
but it was quite hard for me to do as a youngster
’cause all I heard was people barking orders at me,
so I didn’t have to listen to them or respect them or
care what they said. – Did you say Ben,
you’ve got a daughter? – A son.
– You’ve got a son? – Yeah.
– Wow, so we’re talking about the older generation, but you’re already the
older generation. – Yeah, he’s seven next month.
– OK. – So he’s getting on a bit.
[laughing] – At the beginning of Band of Brothers
they ask you, ‘Where do you want to be? What do you want?’ I told them one of the main
things I wanted was stability because I was facing
prison sentences again and just not finding
anything to do in my life. I needed the change
and I’ve found it. So now like, full-time work,
got my son every weekend, a nice house, so I
got to where my goal was. – When you’re thinking
about your son, how do you decide what
kind of dad you want to be? – It’s quite hard with
the masculinity thing. You don’t want him to
over show emotion, ’cause he’ll cry over
anything then but I want him to be
emotionally connected. – You want him to be
balanced, right? – Yeah, I want him
to be balanced ’cause I was shut off
for years, which led me down paths of aggression
and just not bonding with no one. I don’t want
that for him. – D’you wanna?
What do you want to do? – Do some gardening?
– Start gardening. – Do you really wanna do?
– Keep talking? – I would actually love to.
– Would you? – I’m a city girl, you know.
Look, look with these nails – Look at those nails.
– I never do any gardening, ever. – Yeah, I can tell.
– You can tell? I don’t have a garden.
[laughing] – Don’t London have allotments?
– Allotments? Only on EastEnders. – Or patches of grass
next to roadsides … Roundabouts … Look at the state of the grass – Do you want to do
some weeding? – Are those weeds?
– Yeah most of them are. But they’re pretty? – Yeah, a weed is just a
plant in the wrong place. – Oh, right.
[laughing] – Do you know about gardening?
– I can dig. [laughing] – This here, borage
that’s … bees love that. – Alright.
– Milk thistle. – Tell me what to do.
– Just get that underneath there, and lift that. And then you’re going to pull,
once that’s loosened a little bit, then you’ve got to get
all these little bits out. – With my hands?
– With your hands. – With my actual hands?
– With your actual hands. – That’s what you wanted weren’t it?
– Yeah, yeah. In fact, you said you’re
actually a grandad? – I am, I am actually
a grandad. – Do you see yourself as
a grandad most of the time for these guys? – Erm, not really.
[laughing] – We’re in our mid-20s.
– I’m not that old. – I mean, you did say that.
I’m sure you said that. – My role is … no I am an elder,
which is, I suppose like a grandad, in a way. – You’ve got children then? – Yeah, I’ve got three.
One girl, two boys. – Having sons, do you reckon
that helps you when it comes to working
with the guys in the group? – Absolutely, I think I’d say my kids
were my biggest teachers, actually. – What makes you wanna go
and work even more with other guys? – I lived in France for a
long time in isolation. I came back to the UK
and you know, I got involved. I missed community, so
I got involved with communities. And if you’d have asked
me that, say a year before that, about working with young
people, I would have said I couldn’t think of
anything worse. Say for example now,
when you look at the way I will say ‘the media’
portrays things, it’s always, generationally,
they’re like, ‘Oh young people are like this
and old people are like this’. It’s like they’re pitted
against each other. Like young people are
completely different, especially in things like
Brexit or whatever. When I chat to both of you here,
it feels like there’s none of that. It feels like you’ve got
a lot of common … Or most importantly
it’s a respect, do you know what I mean,
it’s a respect between generations. – I think you’re right,
it’s a symbiosis, it’s a respect both ways. You can’t demand to be
respected ’cause you’re older. The young need to be
respected in the same way. They’re the guys of the future
so it’s a two-way thing. – The generational gap ain’t
just youngsters against olders, it’s olders against youngsters.
It’s judgmental. – Yeah. – What do you think old people
judge young people for? – Just misunderstanding.
It’s not being able to understand where a person’s coming from. – What do you think are
the stereotypes that older generations have
about younger people? – I can see sometimes,
like fear on people’s faces just because they see a group
of younger people together but that’s them jumping to
the assumption that that younger group’s
dangerous because of what they’re seeing
through media. – Yeah. – Say for example, if
we acknowledge that there’s been a separation
between generations, how do you decide to tell
them how you’ve decided what kind of man to be? How do you kind of build that?
– We’d ask them that question. You’d ask them that question.
Is that the man you wanna be? There’s no, kind of, prescribed
formula to it, I wouldn’t have said. – So Ben, for example, yeah,
if you’re trying to think about what kind of man you want
to be, what do you base that off? – There’s two obviously, there’s
two ways you can look at it. There’s obviously the man
you don’t want to be, so you can bounce off
of that and see a lot of that. – What kind of man
do you not want to be? – I don’t wanna be this
character that’s just lost and doesn’t know what
I’m doing. I wanna know what I’m doing,
I don’t wanna sort of … Lost people end up usually
turning to crime and drugs, alcohol, ’cause they
haven’t got a path. Being the man that I
wanna be, is just … You look at a lot of
other people and you see happiness,
the stability that they’ve got, and you aspire to do that. – Oh, look is that a potato?
– Well done. – Is that a potato?
– Well done. – You’ve caught your
very own potato. You can take that home
with you and put it on the mantelpiece
and if you watch it very closely it will turn into
a bag of chips. [laughing]
– I want to put it back in the ground. So I really enjoyed the
conversation that I had with Pat and Ben, just like
many of the others I’ve had in this series. It felt really open and
interesting and I feel, as a person, not just
as a journalist, I’ve had a lot of my own
kind of ideas challenged, there’s been lots of
food for thought and I’d like to hear what you guys
have liked in particular and what you would like to
see us do in the future. Like, comment and subscribe
to this video to keep up to date with everything that
we’re doing. Thank you.

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  1. Watch the rest of the series here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYnO2wuIiBg&list=PLa_1MA_DEorHnYu0HjO2pTwtulpJu2YAW
    New episode every two weeks. See you soon.

  2. I've been really happy with this series. You've approached men and listened. The women's movement is well on it's way, and now men need to a movement to dismantle our own stereotypes to lead us into a healthier future, for everyone. Keep up the great work!! ♥️

  3. Again. Thank you for covering the topic of modern masculinity! Being connected to your emotions as a man and being able to express them to other men without fear of negative judgment is something I think should be highlighted and explored further. Cheers

  4. Great episode! And it was really good that the idea of generational segregation was lifted in this episode. Cuz thats one HUGE aspect of the masculinity crisis. Because young men often haven't got an older male role model nowadays. Just 50-100 years ago we still had that. Living close to relatives of older generations or in small communities. So thats something we've lost pretty recently in the West.

    And also that too many boys are growing up without their father, which is a pretty new thing. I would add that all-male-spaces, are also looked upon as an old and sexist thing. Like a boys-club, or boy scouts… So if everything has to be inclusive, these spaces will be lost. So the idea that men can't share feelings, cry or talk about things, doesn't hold true historically.

    Anyways, good episode!

  5. Take a look at my masculinity video here please! Thanks, enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCIbKpkBJo

  6. The great untapped crisis in masculinity, are not those who go off the rails to prison or brought up in care. They are the tens of thousands who raise kids, get a mundane job and put bread on the table day in day out and pay their taxes. The ones who on the whole keep their head down and just get on with it. These are the people ignored by society and treated like invisible people. Unfortunately the Guardian isn't interested in these people.

  7. What I hate about this is, as always the guy who ended up in prison is treated like a hero. There are millions of men completely disenfranchised who quietly get on with their life, work, pay taxes ect, who also feel misrepresented and forgotten, in many cases down to causes that the Guardian champions.

  8. I really want this series to make money to show the guardian and other news organisations that good journalism is the key to success not click bait and moral panic

  9. Respect, beyond the basic level of good manners, needs to be EARNED and can be LOST. When you DEMAND respect, you deserve to lose it.

    Sadly good manners and common sense are scarce commodities.

  10. I'm sure this girl has honest intentions, but I cant help get the feeling of stockholme syndrome watching this.

  11. This episode was heart warming, I think the guys were right about lacking the community in which you can talk to people on an emotional level is destructive. I love this series keep it up.

  12. Tbf not to have a go at the presenter who is great. But it's not just men who are uncomfortable with sharing emotions. But everyone else (women) don't like it either when men share emotions.

    Edit:I go to an allotment project:I just dig too.

  13. Excellent broadcast and Iman is an amazing journalist – Thank-you @the Guardian WE definitely need more workshops and series like these to be shown on both regular TV and online

  14. Men feel better if interacting at the same level, many times through manual work. And less words, unless the very right moment to talk comes. Actually I understand and appreciate this kind of interaction, because it is more genuine for men. This should be an example to follow. So far, this videos about new masculinity are one of the best projects I saw online. Because it is authentic, going to listen to men instead of lecturing them. That is the only way we may arrive to a solution. Great work, please keep on!

  15. How do you come up with the questions to ask these guys? It all seems off the cuff.

    Any chance you could go to other countries like Canada, Sweden etc and see whats going on with masculinity over there?

  16. This is legit journalism that people want to see. Guardian please give Iman a fucking giant raise and more chances to make good content like this. Support good journalists not hack biased opinion writers who parade themselves as journalists. Iman is the real deal.

  17. "I think that's the key to all of this, is feeling everything that's going on the inside instead of trying to run away from it. Like anxiety, anger, fear, sadness, it's getting me a long way. I think that's kind of where us men go wrong is we're trying to run away from our shit that's inside"

    I can't find any better way to rationalise the need for free expression.

    Very lovely videos, I am devouring every single one of them as soon as they pop up on my feed

  18. this is incredible. I really enjoy thinking about the social ideas this creates. Thanks so much for bringing this series to the world!

  19. This work is excellent. Let's spread it on the net via comments. Men need this down to earth approach.

  20. Hotness + crazy sex hair = 10/10, would smash.
    Anyone else get the feeling she only brought Ben along so she could shag him after they were done filming?

  21. This is a great series but she keeps going to see lads who have either had a really hard time or are a bit different from the norm. Just get some white sheep to chat to!

  22. These "men" seem to be reprobates with some sort of mental deficiency or simply boys who never grew up.

    They don't represent me or any of the men I know.

  23. There is no help for males in the UK apart from chit-chat organizations. Women receive the funding and shelter they need, there is not one for men in the UK.

  24. Projects such as Band of Brothers are the way forward, in my opinion. As the young men said, when you come from a troubled background you tend to kick against authority figures, even when they have your best interests at heart. But these older guys are people whose own stories resonate with the younger men, and whom they can relate to, from their own social class. That’s why it works. Also, the fact that the older men are volunteers shows the young men that people think they are worth helping and investing time in, which creates a very different dynamic than when the mentor is being paid to do what they do. Really good stuff!

  25. I really hope this goes mainstream. The modern narrative of men just constantly being barraged as if they're inherently broken is far too pervasive. I honestly loathed the guardian before, but this is just very surprising work.

  26. If men weren't being demonised at every turn, you'd see a lot more constructive discussion as is being demonstrated in this series.

  27. The one thing that is extremely important about this series is that it shows that men wants to be heard, are willing to be heard, and are willing to discuss the idea of masculinity, but more often than not they are not given the platform to do so without facing severe backlash, we always see news shows bringing in feminists to talk about how horrible the world is for women, but the only times we bring in men to talk about men and masculinity its always in a framework of a feminist man, or setting him up against a feminist to try and make her look better.

  28. This entire series has been a pleasure and a joy to watch, smile my way through every episode seeing fellow young men opening up and pro-actively improving their lot in life. Bravo

  29. It'd be really great to see this project expanded globally, see how culture effects this conversation. Especially since this seems to have started by looking at Jordan Peterson, who is Canadian not British

  30. This whole series is nothing would I would expect or see from the Guardian. All I can say is I am impressed by Imans impartial reporting, no baggage, no bias. In fact, just straight honest reporting. This is not praise of the Guardian at all but rather Iman. Kudos to you Iman and my respect.

    Give a man purpose, responsibility, respect and most importantly, tempered with respect and compassion for others and you have a force that will benefit all of society. A force that will sacrifice himself for the benefit of others without hesitation or question.
    Deny him that and you will have chaos and destruction.

    Is this really so hard to understand?

  31. Welcome departure from the usual Guardian agenda, but still as usual the focus is on the pressure men put on other men to behave a certain way. How about grasping the controversial nettle and investigating the pressure and expectations WOMEN put on men? Feminism has largely led to women throwing off the shackles of expectations but men have had no such movement and seem stuck. We can talk about "men sharing their feelings" all we want but until women decide they would rather date and have sex with these more sensitive guys nothing will change. Men- particularly when young- will generally behave in whichever way necessary to attract women, and anecdotally it strikes me that the more emancipated women become, the more they prefer a strong, alpha male type- after all, if you've got your life sorted, you are strong, successful and confidant, why on earth would you partner up with an emotionally fragile wimp?

  32. It just strikes me how those with power and influence don't care at all about these young men. In addition to the economic and sociological challenges, young/straight/white men are treated with suspicion or outright blame in the social justice paradigm where every other category receives sympathy. Is it any wonder we are in the middle of a culture war?

  33. Man… yeah this is what guys want. To sit around in a cricle talking about vulnerability and feelings. LOL.

  34. Iman you are conducting journalism as it was meant to be conducted. This is such a great series, and so in contrast to what our society has come to expect of the media. Thanks so much for doing it, and special thanks to Pat and especially Ben for be willing to open up and bit and share about life. Looking forward to the next episode.

  35. I hope the journalist understands that just by being a woman and being there, she changes the dynamic of the environment and the words and actions these men would say me do. It is not the same thing. It isn't even the same place.

    It is very much the same situation that of a man going into an environment that only women go frequently. The atmosphere changes.

  36. Legit one of the best series I've watched. It's important we see and hear more positive stories like these ones in 2019 and beyond because it's been so so negative for the last while in the media whenever masculinity is mentioned (especially from the Guardian). Maybe the tide is turning! Keep up the good work.

  37. Still surprised to see the Guardian doing actual journalism. Hope Amrani isn't fired for being "far-right" for being an actual journalist.

  38. This is what's needed in communities! Most young men nowadays have no positive role models in their lives!

  39. I want to voice a different angle here – destroying the concepts of both 'masculinity' and 'femininity'. Amalgamating both.

  40. Finally, on the fifth episode, we have some answers into what modern masculinity is that isn't some socially-acceptable, cliched, simple motherhood statement! At 2:20, the gentleman speaks about "getting into [his] body, feeling what's inside instead of trying to run away from it." I think awareness and control over one's emotions is probably what separates today's masculinity from all the forms of masculinity since the Industrial Revolution. Finally, we see men being vulnerable and empathetic!

  41. @iman I think this series is great.. mentoring is important. But I think it would be be great if you interviewed fathers and sons (specifically estranged ones..) . I find myself wondering what is their thought process (fathers that left families) on their sons.. and in exchange the way to their sons feel about it..

  42. The claim that men can't or don't know how to express themselves annoys me. Not only is it untrue, especially given the vast wealth of poetry, songs, paintings and other crafts created by men, there is also something profoundly meaningful and noble about not expressing everything.

    There's been plenty of times where I was desperate for someone to talk to but realized the only person that was really going to help me and change things for the better was myself. I think stoicism is about imagining just how bad things could be, accepting it as if it's coming and then bracing yourself so that you can be reliable and dependable in a time of crisis where people need you to be strong.

    I saw a meme once that accidentally revealed a hidden truth about women who say they want men to be more emotional. It read something like:

    "Girlz, when you feeling down, don't talk to guys about it. They will just help you actually fix the problem and I just want to feel special and get some emotional support damnit ???"

    And I get it. Women want men to be more attentive towards women's emotions, not so much express their own and that's fine. I just wish they'd express that clearly. Could have saved myself some embarrassment and possibly a relationship.

  43. We need more examples of this content; not just in western countries but throughout the world. Men need support and a safe space but also need to not be ashamed of embracing their masculinity.

  44. 0:37 wtf this man is going to blunt that axe if he carries on like that! You always cut at an angle or down the groove

  45. Her gardening with them resulted in some of the most natural dialog in this whole series. You have to get on people's level and do what they do to get them to really trust you. That's a crucial aspect of being a good journalist/documentarian

  46. So much men can grow and go their entire lives without ever feeling respected and having someone to share their true emotions with.

    Isolation undoubtedly leads to insanity. I'm so glad that that group exists.

  47. I love this series, mainly because it isn't something a lot of media today often is. It isn't divisive.

  48. Some comments could seem as like "YEA FINALLY YOU RE LOOKING ON OUR SIDE AND NOW YOU FINALLY UNTERSTAND!!" but honestly I feel like they are the simple statement of "This is very refreshing and touching." and nothing more,

    love this since the first episode, keep it up

  49. Nice to see The Guardian taking time off from it's usual ritual of 2 minutes hate for males to actually meet men on their own terms for a brief moment.

  50. Somehow this series seems to narrowly miss the point for me. There is a lot of it which seems to be saying "Look how wonderfully well these guys are doing now that they are getting in touch with their feminine side". Sure there needs to be communication and of course men and women both need to understand each other more but there is nothing here about the inherent differences between men and women or how the collapse of the family in many parts of society in the last 60 years has led the rise of the young man who was brought up by only women and is totally lost as a result. Most of the people interviewed have some sort of societal problems and certainly a lot of the younger ones have no real father figures. The emphasis on the kind of masculinity that is shown here is quite a minority situation in a lot of the world. I wouldn't call what some of these kids consider to be masculinity to actually be that.
    What of the men who DID have s strong role model, who DO have confidence.. The Hairdresser has it right.. but it's not the whole picture somehow. Points for trying though, even if you can't quite shake the urge to take the "guardian viewpoint" of what you are seeing. Get out of your comfort zone a bit more.

  51. This one was awesome. That is very much a set of young men who need to hear these lessons and have this support.

  52. Feminists are causing the crisis of masculinity. They are creating a narrative that being a man is wrong. It's incredibly toxic and divisive

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