Analysis: Core-A Gaming Reacts to Street Fighter V’s 8 Frames of Input Lag
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Analysis: Core-A Gaming Reacts to Street Fighter V’s 8 Frames of Input Lag

August 23, 2019

ps4 has eight frames of lag natively outside of playing online so it offline it has roughly eight frames of lag Street Fighter on PC has four frames of lag so it’s the same as Street Fighter 4 it would have never occurred to me that having an extra four frames of lag will make so much of a difference this statement by Zangief player Snake Eyes was seen by many as an excuse for his lack of performance so far in competitive Street Fighter 5 and the term eight frame has now turned into a meme of sorts in the world of competition excuses are seen as poison and players aren’t really allowed to say anything other than I promise I won’t fail again smash players have even coined the term no John’s roughly meaning no excuses because apparently someone named John made a lot of excuses while labels like these are useful to instantly fork blame-shifting it can also make it difficult to have an actual conversation as Ted Cruz will tell you so at the risk of getting called core 8 gaming I’m going to talk about these eight frames or approximately 133 milliseconds of lag to really understand the implications of eight frames I think it’s important to put it in a larger context and start from the moment the player reacts until we see the game register and input on the screen I never thought it would happen but this might be my first reaction video we are excited to announce react world if you google human reaction time it pulls up the results of backyard brains calm that claims the average reaction time for a visual stimulus is 250 milliseconds and 170 milliseconds for audio they use the tried and true ruler experiment but for the sake of this video I wanted something more relevant like an actual gamer reacting to chun-li by pressing a button on an arcade stick so I decided to test myself and my equipment I reacted to another person randomly jabbing with chun-li my stick was unplugged because I just wanted to measure the time it took for me to notice an attack and press a button my average reaction time from seeing and hearing chun-li’s jab to pressing a button was 147 milliseconds it should be noted that I had a cup of coffee some organic Earl Grey tea and half of this Taiwanese awesome black tea which was awesome with the human element out of the way the next step was to find out how much lag my controller produced but measuring controller lag with any meaningful precision is probably one of the hardest things to do because the game can only register inputs in one frame increments however by doing thousands of trials and averaging out the numbers you can see which controllers are faster and luckily for us Tia that net has already done this with a ton of different controllers using a sound methodology my controller uses a Brook PCB that introduces 4.3 milliseconds of lag and according to stick maker laugh controller lag doesn’t become a problem until it’s more than eight milliseconds or half the frame now that we have the measurements of the player and the controller we have to see how much lag the actual game has after receiving a signal from the controller for this we need not look further than four would a competitive player that runs a website called display lag comm and it’s largely responsible for bringing this topic to the forefront by using a device called the xim4 we found that the lag was around 7.9 frames or 131 milliseconds which is where the eight framed figure comes from but for wood said he adds 10 milliseconds of monitor Lac to get his figures so we’ll subtract that to get a pure game lag rating which would be 121 milliseconds or 7.3 frames so the next thing to measure is the monitor lag which can also be found on display like comm but unfortunately this isn’t so simple either according to the site LCD and LED monitors do not display each consecutive frame at once each new frame starts to appear at the top and goes to the bottom to test out this claim I made a video of 90’s boy band ken flickering on and off which looked like this to the naked eye then I record this being played back on my monitor at a thousand frames per second and slowed it down by 40 times it looks like this each new frame actually looks like some crappy PowerPoint transition here’s what gameplay looks like slowed down so how do you measure something that changes from top to bottom like this apparently the standard is to use a device called the Leo Bodnar lag tester this thing hooks up to the monitor and measures three areas of the screen top middle and bottom the difference in lag between the top and bottom can be an entire frame which means you are technically seeing updates to your meter a frame later than your health bar but because it’s assumed most people view the middle of most of the time the top middle and bottom are averaged out to get a single figure so my monitor was measured at 11 milliseconds which is among the fastest in the market so now that we have all the numbers what can all this tell us for one’s Street Fighter 5 has some of the most input lag in a competitive fighter if you combine the lag of the controller game and monitor the game itself is creating 89% of the lag if you compare my scrubby reaction time to the input lag of my entire setup the setup accounts for 48% of the lag and if you replace me with your garden-variety Evo champ high on energy drinks we get to the point where the player is reacting faster than an input can even be recognized so this raises the question did Capcom did this on purpose or do they just suck at programming personally I think it was intentional and the evidence for this lies in what’s known as the overhead attack overhead moves are powerful because they’re the only non special move that can hit Crouch blocking characters from the ground to prevent a move like this from being too powerful they usually have the longest startup time and the characters move sets so people can block them on reaction if you look at the average overhead startup frames for Street Fighter 5 it’s around twenty two point three frames while Street Fighter 4 has an average of nineteen point four frames this is a two point nine frame difference which almost exactly matches the difference in input lag of two point eight frames which effectively compensates for the delay but if it was intentional why would they purposely make the game less responsive by introducing lag I think there are likely many reasons including technical ones like matching the feel of online and local play but one theory I have is that they did it to make the game more offensive it’s been no secret that they wanted to emphasize offense with high-risk back dashes block normals taking gray life and traditionally defensive guile doing stuff like this but increased input lag takes it a step further by making it harder to with punish and react to dashes and jump ins and players that depend on a reactive defensive style play is going to suffer while proactive offense will be rewarded the grand finals at West Coast warzone 5 kind of Illustrated this go hammer go home concept for the average spectator it did create a visually more exciting game but fans of the more footsie based gameplay were wondering what they just saw and once again this isn’t something new changes the reactive nature of a game have affected the career of people in other games – most notably American football traditionally in the middle of the field has been seen as a death stone for receivers because things like this could happen but after officials started to penalize helmet-to-helmet hits more often the middle of the field has become a much safer place this change was part of the reason defensive safety Brian Dawkins retired he felt that players are now in a gray area meaning there are times the player has to think or pause instead of react but even here the obstruction to reactiveness was having to think more which I’d argue is a more defensible obstruction than artificially induced input lag if these eight frames of lag were indeed an intentional game design choice it seems like a drastic way to force players into a slugfest as a very offensive player myself I feel this input lag it’s actually helped me win more but I’d rather have a more responsive game but I don’t know maybe it’s not such a big deal at the end of the day I’m still having fun with the game let me know in the comments if you think this is a serious issue a giant excuse for people who can’t adapt or something in between this was Gerald from Quarry gaming thanks for watching and subscribe

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  1. I miss sf4 to this day. I felt like people had real recognizable style and following players was rewarding, now I feel like everything is so optimized that there’s a right way to play an it’s difficult for me to discern one player from another.

  2. The input lag has completely fucked my links. As an Ibuki player, comboing has become much harder. Then again maybe I just need to get good.

  3. I think because it makes it more offence based, makes it more entertaining to watch. Which is crucial for esports and ratings.

  4. 4 frames of lag is the normal thing in every game cause of the double buffering( vsync)… the solution is to update the game with vsync option so you can turn it off and have a single frame in 60hz( 16.67ms)… it will introduce screen tearing but in fighting game you focus more on reaction time and linking the combos more than picture quality

  5. 1:30 Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeear lord this is soooo fucking inaccurate. Who made that Backyard brains website? The human reaction time can range from 1ms to 2 full seconds. (And before you call bullshit on me, jet fighter pilots can distinguish images that last only a 2500th of a second.) That's not even the average. I have a reaction time of 800ms. Am I brain damaged? Maybe. Does anyone care? Absolutely fucking not. Does it give you the right to make ridiculous claims that anyone can have 0.001 seconds of reaction time if "you tried hard enough"? Absolutely fucking not. You are wrong in so many ways. Not literally, but psychologically.

    2:04 A fucking drug altered test. Glorious. You are a true scientist.

    2:45 "Lag doesn't become a problem until it's 8ms, or half a frame. …according to a stick maker." CLAP……… CLAP……….. CLAP………..

    4:30 "11ms is one of the fastest in the market." The absolute state of the PS4 player.

    5:35 Why does every single fucking SFV player in the entire planet forget that ULTRA street fighter 4 existed and not only street fighter 4?

    5:55 If they wanted to make the game more offensive they would have made moves faster, not slower.

    Stop sucking capcom's dick and trying to come up with billions of excuses for that server side lag switch they introduced. And then they say USFIV's netcode is "sooo horrible :(".

  6. It has been confirmed that it's only the PS4 version of SF5 that suffers greatly from high frames of input lag. But it isn't just 8 frames. The lag is variable. PS4 players (offline as well) suffer from variable input lag.

  7. Any input lag intentional or not is a bad idea it does not allow people to play at their peak of skill. Even more so in aiming games like splatoon2 which has a 100ms delay and it makes twitch aim less viable and defensive less aim heavy playstyles better. In sf's case is helps offensive people but again not a good idea let people play the best they can. Prediction is somewhat luck though there is skill of getting into their head and assessing options as you think they will it will always be somewhat luck based, adding more prediction adds more of that which in my opinion makes the game more about reads which is somewhat luck rather then good reactions.

  8. Excuse me, I have a question, I know for a fact that Melee and later Smash games also has this shitty 8 frames of input lag by the game itself. But, Smash64 on the Nintendo64 which is the first and oldest Smash Game, it also haves or does not have these 8 frames?

  9. how about these games stop living in the past and run at at least 144 fps. Fighting games aren't that resource intensive, so >150 shouldn't be that hard on an i7 and 1070/80. I don't understand why people don't seem to care too much about frame rates unless they're under 60 outside of fps games.

  10. Normally I play Smash with the blue Gamecube controller, but recently I used a black controller and it felt much different. It probably has slightly different lag.

  11. Seven or eight frames of lag and my reaction speed is expected to be about seven to eight frames. That means there are only 4 frames where I'm supposed to actually catch an overhead.

  12. He says 147ms is scrubby but when you look at the human average it's just under 250ms which is 100ms more so yeah 147 is not really that scrubby to begin with

  13. Well at least in this video you acknowledge the obviuos

    It's about online play

    Who cares what your input lag is when you're facing opponents with 100 ping

  14. Apparently with latest update SF5 is now ~5 frames. Can any competitive/long time players of the game tell me if it's better/worse? Have you noticed any difference in how you have to play (more defensive/offensive etc)? Cheers =)

  15. Someone should make a hack of Street fighter 2 Turbo which has innately programmed 32 frame lag put in it. Then Watch how painfully apparent frame lag determines skill cap.

  16. This is a horrible design choice, bad for the game, has no benefits, and any artificial input lag at all should be removed completely.

  17. total controller lag is probably more then 4ms tbh that is just counting the board's delay not counting the delay inside of the switches in the buttons and the travel time to activate it and then the pooling rate of the ps4 which is probably pooling at either 8ms or 4ms . which are all needed if your going to try isolate input delay on a game with a human pressing the button. all in all figuring out all of that with human error becomes quite hard if your trying to isolate human error from something

  18. Wow and I thought that smash ultimates 5 frames of lag was bad I cant even imagine what 8 would be like

  19. melee averages around 30-50ms of input lag, iirc.
    good thing we'll never have to move onto a newer game that plays slower than the one we play from 2001. i feel bad for the REAL fgc, you guys are kinda capcom's bitch.

  20. So? Though I hate the speed at which modern super high def looks because it moves too unnaturally, 4-8 frames is nothing. ITs street fighter, not full immersive VR. I have been telling people for a long time that at any point in the last 120 years, we as a species have been a good generation, 20 years behind where we should be technologically. I was also one of the only people I know that questioned the quality of gaming graphics/visuals from the Sega CD and 32X era onwards, including N64 and all Playstation and other consoles of those eras. Now, though I was enamored of those consoles growing up, but stil, since watching early cgi in cinema in the 80s, I like many have a great nack for spotting that which is false, literally and figuratively speaking. As a result, Every generation of tech should have, therefore, been more sophisticated, even by just a point or two, and thus visually speaking things hsould have looked better, almost from the get go. Still, even with the seemingly huge strides taken during the 90s across the board for technology, by the time the PS2 and Xbox age came about, something was missing. The same happened with the emergence of the PS3 and Xbox 360, where things didnt look like they should have, though I am not saying they should have even been at 4k yet. But the components and specs of the CPU, GPU, RAM, virtual RAM, Cores, Clock speeds, should have been better, as well as hard drive space. Come the 8th gen of consoles, with barely True 1080p/True 2k to 1440p being fairly standard for anythign with a screen, still the specs were lacking greatly. I hope the next gen of things are better, acause I am "banking" on it, but I am not overly hopeful. The damn industry is saying things will easily be 8K compatible when most people are content with 720p on fairly old rigs, older consoles that do half that resolution, and 4g phones that sit around there too. ITs always a quarter of the world vs the other 3/4. *smfh * SUCK IT UP!…4-8 frames…ffs >,;,<.

  21. You're the type of person or college student who analyze the shit out of your topic paper aren't you? Nevertheless loving your vids man. Keep up the work.

  22. so like the game has 8's frame input lag that means that is harder to do combos in game compared to fighterz ,mk11,and blazblue where there is less input lag?

  23. I can understand lag to compensate for people's internet connection, but why can't they have 2 sets of lag? Online lag and local lag? I don't know shit about fighting games. I just remember a similar situation with Modern Warfare 3 and their "lag compensation" BS… Sometimes I am glad I don't compete in games professionally, or I might have thousands of dollars worth of broken monitors, controllers, consoles, my hand.

  24. LoL and WoW player speaking here. I hadn't realised that Street Fighter pros had to play with so much lag
    No kidding here but in pro play 30ms can make big defference. Even half of 130ms is a whole lot, it feels like there is no respnse

  25. I highly suspect it was done because PS4 could not deliver 4 frame input lag using Unreal Engine 4.
    As the PC is faster.

  26. One day I was playing Smash online, and suddenly, the match started and we had about one entire second of input lag. Nevertheless I think I was able to take advantage of that much better than my opponent. I started playing aggressive, approaching quickly and using powerful attacks that would normally be too risky to use in a neutral close position, but of corse, my opponent wasn't able to react to. I won the match very easily at the end. >:D

  27. This is a why why not situation for me. I play Tekken casually, so I really can't go either way with competitive Street Fighter.

  28. I have around 15,000 across 18 different systems. Not only is it unimportant what publishers do now, I think an industry-wide crash would be a good thing. Ads in games, loot boxes, subscription model's, DRM, the list goes on. All the good games have already been made and I'm not compromising for ANY of the new bullshit. I don't need another game to ever be published again. Best of luck to the rest of you.

  29. Hi. I wonder when we'll get rid of lag? Perhaps, through photonics, instead of electronics.

    God bless, Proverbs 31

  30. I think they programmed the 7.9 lag because players were already used to the lag on the arcades (first one to have online play at the arcades). 

    Lag, overall, it's really part or the gameplay, one must include in his or her mastery, else there won't be new champions or new exciting matches.

    God bless, Proverbs 31

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